Suggestions regarding Low Cost, Low Power small office server - thin client setup

[hiteshkkk1 327]

Hello...

Rajan bhai / other gurus, pls suggest me a good server config & thin client.

Requirements: I need to connect 5-7 PCs thru RDP (in win7 - I have necessary cracks to enable multiple user RDP in win7).

Each terminal will connect to this server & their use will be

Word

Excel (Heavy use, our sheets contain lot of data and some files are even upto 17-18 mb in size.)

Browsing

Stock Market Backoffice software (DOT NET based - Very less resources hungry)

ODIN Terminal (Stock market trading software - Very resource hungry - at any given time, uses around 150-200 mb of memory)

I have some configurations in my mind. Pls suggest changes if any.

Server

CPU/Board - Core i7 with intermediate board having atleast 4 slots for RAM. Any comments n brands pls suggest. Also, cud have selected XEON but I read it does not support Hyper Threading. Also for Win7 I feel i7 wud be good.

RAM - initially 8gb & if reqd, upgrade to 16gb. Pls suggest brands / other parameters like fsb n all.

Storage - 80GB Intel SSD & if budget permits, one more SSD on RAID1 (Win7 based OS RAID). IF budget doesnt, then any 500gb HDD with day end backups.

Cabinet - Considering temperature in jalgaon, it goes around 48-50 deg in summers + 8-9 hours of power cut so needs good ventilation & fans, if any should be silent & of course should not dig hole in pocket.

SMPS - Dont have much idea on it. But suggest based on fact that I plan to keep this server up 24x7, should not be noisy.

Thin clients

Atom based

512mb ram

512mb IDE DOM

ITX cabinet

DC-DC smps (pls throw some light on this as never used it - primary reason is power saving)

SUSE Linux to use terminal services. No native use of this pc.

I have thought of finalizing this one

Apart from this, i have 2 ideas for software:

1. Install Win7 on server & directly access it thru RDP in suse linux.

Pros - Easy installation.

Cons - For ODIN, i need each client to use it on different PC bcoz if ODIN is used by 3 users all of them technically use it on same PC but different RDP session & when we close ODIN, it takes auto backup which gets over written when all 3 of them will close. Though this is not of top priority but still if can be solved then good.

or

2. Install VMWARE ISX on server & make 5-7 virtual pcs & access them thru RDP in suse linux.

Pros - Each thin client will use different VM.

Cons - Installation seems to be difficult. Never used it.

Would be happy if someone can shed light on it.

One more option is, in Case no. 1, can install win server 2008 on server & install VMWARE Workstation & then make 5-7 Win7 based VMs but not sure if it can give sufficient performance or not. I need as good as native pc performance on thin clients.

Hope to get some inputs from gurus.

Mods can make it a new post if required as this is a kind of combination which many small offices can use & save lot of power, especially in maharashtra where there are lot of power cuts. In this combination, my thinking is, if i use Server + 7 thin clients, i will require not more than 700-800 watts of power. Where as, if i just use 7 full fledged PCs, then it will consume around 1500 watts. (all watts are including 25watts for LCD Monitor)

Edited September 19, 2010 by Honest
<< Topic Splitted >>

[rajanmehta 4,056]

@Hitesh

Sorry for late response. Have been busy.

First let me congratulate you for a very detailed post. It seems you have done quite a bit of homework. It is always a pleasure to help people who want to help themselves and work hard towards that.

Going by your use, I would not recommend using Windows 7 on your server and thin clients for a variety of reasons,

-Windows 7 will never give you complete options for user management, security and other features which a normal server operating system will give. This may look not important at this stage to you but believe me for a growing business like yours, all this parameters are extremely important. Unless you have full control over users, applications and other things, problems will arise sooner than later and you will want to have things under full control.

-Despite Windows 7 being a good stable OS compared to Vista, it can never be a substitute for Server OS. They are designed differently and so many features of the Server OS are not available in Windows 7.

-Similarly in my opinion using VMWARE and all those things are not workable.

Using thin clients:

I will not advice this despite the supposed power savings because many applications do not run properly in multiple instances on server in RDP. Theory is one part, I am telling from actual experience. Performance is erratic. You do not have full control over user configuration as you have in a typical server os and client pc scenario.

Moreover all of today's modern cpu be it intel or amd have very good power saving features wherein the processor frequency is throttled down during light use or no use.

Thin clients are good when you have just a single application to run like data entry. In your usage scenario, you want to run excel, word, ODIN and browsing. Imagine all your users browsing on the Server! This is a recipe for disaster.

Using Desktop Processor and Motherboard for Server:

Most of the small business organization grapple with this choice one day when they need a server. The savings which you make by using Desktop Processor and Motherboard is quite substantial compared to Server Processor and Boards.

Pros:

-You save good amount of money.

-There will not be a huge difference in performance.

Cons:

-As the desktop board you will choose for a server obviously has to have a high end one, it will have all features including separate graphic cards, multimedia, firewire and everything you can imagine. The problem arises usually with the drivers. One cranky driver and your Server OS will come crashing down.

-With most high end desktop boards, you will not get drivers for Server Operating Systems.

Using SSD as Storage on Server:

Don't even think about it. I suppose you are thinking about the performance edge which you will get when you will use SSD on Server. But this is not at all worth it because,

-SSD Technology is still not mature and mainstream. SSD has a fixed write and read cycle for each sector before it goes bad. Now because of this so many different algorithms are used so that SSD Controller sees to it that data is not written in the same sector again till a fresh unwritten sector is available. This obviously has its overheads and performance is impacted.

-When the read-write cycle nears its end, the sector will be useless.

-SSD drives do not have enterprise class robustness to be used in a server.

Well there are many things you can read on the net about SSD Drives. Point is do not use it in Server at all.

For Storage you can think of good enterprise class hard drives like Western Digital Velociraptor which are the fastest hard drives on the planet and their cost will be less than the cost of SSD for the same capacity.

For Server Cabinet:

VIP Server Cabinets are good and cost effective. Another choice would be Intel Original Server Cabinets but they will be very costly.

SMPS:

VIP Server Cabinets come with SMPS. There are many other choices for SMPS from Indian branded to imported brands. This can be decided later based on the board and processor.

I would advice you to go for a typical Server and PC scenario. Please post the following detail also to go forward in this,

-ODIN. Is this a windows software which needs to be installed on PC? For connectivity it must be using internet but in what format. I have heard that NSE operates on VSAT based internet connectivity? Have they also started allowing broadband internet connection now? How is the user management done in ODIN. Is it a Client Server Application?

Once you make up your mind on Server and PC, we will see the exact brand and model.

Hope this helps.

[hiteshkkk1 327]

Hi..

Thanks for such a helpful n eye opening reply.. Will post my comments below ur points in your post itself...

@Hitesh

Sorry for late response. Have been busy.

First let me congratulate you for a very detailed post. It seems you have done quite a bit of homework. It is always a pleasure to help people who want to help themselves and work hard towards that.

Going by your use, I would not recommend using Windows 7 on your server and thin clients for a variety of reasons,

-Windows 7 will never give you complete options for user management, security and other features which a normal server operating system will give. This may look not important at this stage to you but believe me for a growing business like yours, all this parameters are extremely important. Unless you have full control over users, applications and other things, problems will arise sooner than later and you will want to have things under full control.

-Despite Windows 7 being a good stable OS compared to Vista, it can never be a substitute for Server OS. They are designed differently and so many features of the Server OS are not available in Windows 7.

Seems very logical... Will think on it.. What is next better alternative to Win7??? Never used any server OS before.

-Similarly in my opinion using VMWARE and all those things are not workable.

Had multiple options in my mind like using VMs hosted on VMWARE workstation installed on Server, VMWARE esxi or linux based server + vmware but ur opinion would sure be backed by experience. Are there any specific flaws?? If they are not of high intensity, our multiple instance problem can be solved.

Using thin clients:

I will not advice this despite the supposed power savings because many applications do not run properly in multiple instances on server in RDP. Theory is one part, I am telling from actual experience. Performance is erratic. You do not have full control over user configuration as you have in a typical server os and client pc scenario.

I am already using RDP since last 2-3 years & as you correctly said, multiple instances sometimes create problems, but saving 700-800 watts of power is the main concern due to prolonged power cuts. Also, in my experience, I can compromise on multiple instance issue for power saving + space saving.. Space too here is concern...

In my current config, its very basic C2D 2200 CPU with 2gb ram. It runs smoothly for upto 2 users but after that there is drop in performance. Thats why, I am ready to spend on high end server rather than using 7-8 separate PCs. Would be happy if i can use thin clients...

Moreover all of today's modern cpu be it intel or amd have very good power saving features wherein the processor frequency is throttled down during light use or no use.

Thin clients are good when you have just a single application to run like data entry. In your usage scenario, you want to run excel, word, ODIN and browsing. Imagine all your users browsing on the Server! This is a recipe for disaster.

Using Desktop Processor and Motherboard for Server:

Most of the small business organization grapple with this choice one day when they need a server. The savings which you make by using Desktop Processor and Motherboard is quite substantial compared to Server Processor and Boards.

Pros:

-You save good amount of money.

-There will not be a huge difference in performance.

Cons:

-As the desktop board you will choose for a server obviously has to have a high end one, it will have all features including separate graphic cards, multimedia, firewire and everything you can imagine. The problem arises usually with the drivers. One cranky driver and your Server OS will come crashing down.

-With most high end desktop boards, you will not get drivers for Server Operating Systems.

Noted...

Using SSD as Storage on Server:

Don't even think about it. I suppose you are thinking about the performance edge which you will get when you will use SSD on Server. But this is not at all worth it because,

-SSD Technology is still not mature and mainstream. SSD has a fixed write and read cycle for each sector before it goes bad. Now because of this so many different algorithms are used so that SSD Controller sees to it that data is not written in the same sector again till a fresh unwritten sector is available. This obviously has its overheads and performance is impacted.

-When the read-write cycle nears its end, the sector will be useless.

-SSD drives do not have enterprise class robustness to be used in a server.

Well there are many things you can read on the net about SSD Drives. Point is do not use it in Server at all.

For Storage you can think of good enterprise class hard drives like Western Digital Velociraptor which are the fastest hard drives on the planet and their cost will be less than the cost of SSD for the same capacity.

Had never used SSD so didnt knew all these factors.. Will surely note ur points..

For Server Cabinet:

VIP Server Cabinets are good and cost effective. Another choice would be Intel Original Server Cabinets but they will be very costly.

SMPS:

VIP Server Cabinets come with SMPS. There are many other choices for SMPS from Indian branded to imported brands. This can be decided later based on the board and processor.

Noted...

I would advice you to go for a typical Server and PC scenario. Please post the following detail also to go forward in this,

Looking at my above points, see if u can convert ur advice to thin clients by doing some other modifications...

-ODIN. Is this a windows software which needs to be installed on PC? For connectivity it must be using internet but in what format. I have heard that NSE operates on VSAT based internet connectivity? Have they also started allowing broadband internet connection now? How is the user management done in ODIN. Is it a Client Server Application?

Odin is a third party software made by www.ftindia.com & it combines all exchanges like BSE, NSE, MCX, NCDEX, etc. It a windows software which is installed on pc. It can be used on Broadband or vast or leased line & connectivity is thru a broker's office & not directly thru exchange. User management is done by our broker (in my case www.smctradeonline.com) & they have all admin rights over us. Ours is not client server app. Its a stand alone app. Infact, it even allows multiple instances flawlessly, but the only issue is 1. too much use of resources (hetalbhai's company also provides solutions such as odin & they hardly use 4-5 mb at a point) Odin's single instance needs 150-200 mb of memory so for more than 1 instance, it can slowdown the performance. 2nd issue is, there is one setting which needs 10 seconds to be done every time after loggin in if we use it on multiple instance scenario. this is not in case for single use. 3. every time we log off from odin it takes order n trade backup. So in case of multiple instances, these backups get over written.

Once you make up your mind on Server and PC, we will see the exact brand and model.

Hope my explanations are clear & based on that I will be happy if that cud be accomplished on server - thin client model. Still, if you strongly oppose this system, I will make up my mind & think other viable options...

Hope this helps.

Thanks once again & waiting for your reply as well as comments from other gurus too....

[rajanmehta 4,056]

@Hitesh

For Server:

The choice is Windows Server 2008 R2. If you have never used a Server OS before, then obviously there will be a hard learning curve involved. If you are going to do everything yourself, it will demand considerable amount of time and resources on your part. You have to take a call whether you can spare such time and effort. Next best course of action is to get the Server Setup done from a professional organization initially.

For Virtualization:

I did not get you clearly when you say installing VMWARE Workstation on Server and using virtual machines in that. Do you mean that you will install VMWARE Workstation on Server and into that you will install 5 Instances of Desktop OS like XP or Win7? If this will be the case, then when your user connects to the server and launches VMWARE Workstation to select their particular desktop OS, VMWARE workstation itself will be running in multiple instances and eating up resources. VMWARE ESXI may be a better solution as it does not depend on the host OS for management of resources. However I am not much familiar with ESXI.

For Linux Based Server:

You said that you have not used any Server OS till now. In this background, using Linux Server OS will be a real brave decision. If you know linux very well, it is O.K. Otherwise it is a totally different environment compared to familiar windows and takes huge amount of learning. Not saying that Linux Servers will be in any way inferior to Windows Server. In fact they are sometimes better. But only in particular instance when you know how to work around with linux.

Using thin clients:

Can understand your concern regarding power cuts and saving 700-800 watts. You mean to say you have 8-9 hour power cuts during daytime? If that is the case, then do you use UPS or Inverter Power Backup during so much time?

One another alternative as opposed to using thin clients will be to use Netbooks with 7-8 hour battery capacity which you can then charge in the night. I am not sure whether netbook screen size will be sufficient for you though. However even in your thin client, you are going to attach it to an LCD Monitor and monitor you are going to power up during power cuts also. You can run Word, Excel, Browsing on netbook locally and run your main app ODIN on Server. All netbooks come with Windows XP Pro, 1 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD. This is familiar windows environment and not much configuration isssues involved. You can be up and running very fast. Also the multiple running instance issue can be resolved for all other apps except ODIN. Even ODIN can be installed and tried on Netbook. You can increase the Netbook RAM to 2 GB. Netbook Cost will be approx. 6000-7000 higher then the linux thin client you have shortlisted. As far as performance goes, you will really have to check this out on a Netbook for yourself and See. If this works, then your Server Config. Can be lower also.

I do not strongly oppose thin client model. Only for the reasons of configuration issues and complexity, I am a bit skeptical on their actual use for multi application environments.

I think the best course of action for you would be to if you have access to a reasonably good spec PC, install Server OS on that, buy one thin client and do all the configuration as you desire and test it out. Same way if you can lay your hand on a Netbook, do the same. There is nothing like real usage scenario experience.

My inputs are really focused on simplifying things. We all want to use the technology to the greatest extent possible but in our enthusiasm generally tend to forget that technology is just an enabler and means to an end and not an end itself. Important thing is your business and to run it smoothly giving it all you can. I have experimented with Linux and many other things but generally it has not worked out in the business processes and had lot of issues. You cannot halt the business for implementing complex technology. I would like you to read one of the post in RIMWEB wherein Sadikkbhai asked for help on CRM Software under General Technical Discussion. Post Title is Want CRM for Small Business Like Mine. The response I would like you to read is of ami1 at post no. 5 in that thread. That is the philosophy i think everyone should adopt when you are using technology for your business.

Enough of advice.

[hiteshkkk1 327]

@Hitesh

For Server:

The choice is Windows Server 2008 R2. If you have never used a Server OS before, then obviously there will be a hard learning curve involved. If you are going to do everything yourself, it will demand considerable amount of time and resources on your part. You have to take a call whether you can spare such time and effort. Next best course of action is to get the Server Setup done from a professional organization initially.

I understand what u say... but the thing is, jalgaon is a small town n there arent any hitech engineers here. infact i am the one who find solutions on net n help them so i have to do it myself n i m confident can do it by taking google's help. only issue is hardware capability that will test n then decide.

For Virtualization:

I did not get you clearly when you say installing VMWARE Workstation on Server and using virtual machines in that. Do you mean that you will install VMWARE Workstation on Server and into that you will install 5 Instances of Desktop OS like XP or Win7? If this will be the case, then when your user connects to the server and launches VMWARE Workstation to select their particular desktop OS, VMWARE workstation itself will be running in multiple instances and eating up resources. VMWARE ESXI may be a better solution as it does not depend on the host OS for management of resources. However I am not much familiar with ESXI.

you understood bit right... but my planning was, only 1 instance of VM ware on server & all 5 VM will be up on that server itself but each VM will be accessed by thin client via RDP. I think esxi can handle such load but again will have to test n then see...

For Linux Based Server:

You said that you have not used any Server OS till now. In this background, using Linux Server OS will be a real brave decision. If you know linux very well, it is O.K. Otherwise it is a totally different environment compared to familiar windows and takes huge amount of learning. Not saying that Linux Servers will be in any way inferior to Windows Server. In fact they are sometimes better. But only in particular instance when you know how to work around with linux.

i can do only by googling.. dont have own knowledge of linux...

Using thin clients:

Can understand your concern regarding power cuts and saving 700-800 watts. You mean to say you have 8-9 hour power cuts during daytime? If that is the case, then do you use UPS or Inverter Power Backup during so much time?

we have 4+4 hrs of power cut in day time. currently i have 1 ups for pc with 3 batteries & 1 inverter with 2 batteries for lights n other load. planning to get shriram honda ebk 2800...

One another alternative as opposed to using thin clients will be to use Netbooks with 7-8 hour battery capacity which you can then charge in the night. I am not sure whether netbook screen size will be sufficient for you though. However even in your thin client, you are going to attach it to an LCD Monitor and monitor you are going to power up during power cuts also. You can run Word, Excel, Browsing on netbook locally and run your main app ODIN on Server. All netbooks come with Windows XP Pro, 1 GB RAM, 160 GB HDD. This is familiar windows environment and not much configuration isssues involved. You can be up and running very fast. Also the multiple running instance issue can be resolved for all other apps except ODIN. Even ODIN can be installed and tried on Netbook. You can increase the Netbook RAM to 2 GB. Netbook Cost will be approx. 6000-7000 higher then the linux thin client you have shortlisted. As far as performance goes, you will really have to check this out on a Netbook for yourself and See. If this works, then your Server Config. Can be lower also.

dont want to use net books as again screen has to be there n it will go costly...

I do not strongly oppose thin client model. Only for the reasons of configuration issues and complexity, I am a bit skeptical on their actual use for multi application environments.

can understand....

I think the best course of action for you would be to if you have access to a reasonably good spec PC, install Server OS on that, buy one thin client and do all the configuration as you desire and test it out. Same way if you can lay your hand on a Netbook, do the same. There is nothing like real usage scenario experience.

rightly said... finally i have decided as below:-

1. make a xeon based pc with 8gb ram n a good HDD as u said before

2. install win server 2008 or vmware esxi

3. test both of them thru rdp with existing pcs n probably 1 thin client for actual experience

4. whichever suits, will finalise that one n get other thin clients

will post my comments on same once i do...

My inputs are really focused on simplifying things. We all want to use the technology to the greatest extent possible but in our enthusiasm generally tend to forget that technology is just an enabler and means to an end and not an end itself. Important thing is your business and to run it smoothly giving it all you can. I have experimented with Linux and many other things but generally it has not worked out in the business processes and had lot of issues. You cannot halt the business for implementing complex technology. I would like you to read one of the post in RIMWEB wherein Sadikkbhai asked for help on CRM Software under General Technical Discussion. Post Title is Want CRM for Small Business Like Mine. The response I would like you to read is of ami1 at post no. 5 in that thread. That is the philosophy i think everyone should adopt when you are using technology for your business.

Enough of advice.

had read that CRM post n even commented there itself... it was one of the best post on our forum

apart from all this, can we have a mainframe type solution where all cpu cabinets are kept in server room n vga/keyboard/mouse extended upto desks??? if yes then even that will help me to some extent...

[rajanmehta 4,056]

@Hitesh

dont want to use net books as again screen has to be there n it will go costly...

Well in thin client also you will have to use a monitor. The thin client which you have identified is having a cost of Rs. 9000/- if I am not mistaken. Netbook may cost you in the range of 15000-16000.

rightly said... finally i have decided as below:-

1. make a xeon based pc with 8gb ram n a good HDD as u said before

2. install win server 2008 or vmware esxi

3. test both of them thru rdp with existing pcs n probably 1 thin client for actual experience

4. whichever suits, will finalise that one n get other thin clients

I think before finalizing on Xeon, wait for some time. Search on the net for a compatible motherboard for either Intel i7 or AMD Six Core Phenom II SIX X6 - 1090T BE Processor which has got Windows Server 2008 Drivers. The AMD one is really a superb processor in the price range of around Rs. 14,000/-. Plus the motherboard for AMD Processor will be cheaper compared to Intel i7 motherboards. I don't think Intel i7 is Six Core. This AMD Processor is one of the cheapest Six Core Processor available today. In Comparison Intel Six Core will cost you thousands of rupees more. Also look for intel server motherborads series compatible with i7 if you can't find an AMD Motherboard with Windows Server Drivers. You will save good amount of money by using this processors instead of Xeon.

For your thin clients, check out the following vendors and their models.

www.ncomputing.com

www.enjayworld.com

Particularly Enjay one has got a large variety of models and they are accustomed to Indian Environment and usage. If you shoot them a mail, I think they will probably help you with the configuration and choice as they are a homegrown company which understands the our Indian needs very well.

Also checkout LG Network Monitor Range wherein thin client is built into the backside of monitor. I think they are using ncomputing model only.

Again my advice will be please don't be in a hurry. Checkout all your options and only then decide.

Please use the Report function in your first post in this particular thread and request the moderators to shift this topic under a more appropriate title rather than advice on atom based pc. Many more members will read it and benefit.

[Honest 836]

<< Topic Splitted >>

[rajanmehta 4,056]

<< Topic Splitted >>

Thanks Kamalbhai. You are really observing everything!

[faizone 15]

The server can be installed with any Unix flavor (Linux/Solaris) with virtualization support (Xen or Virtualbox)

We can have several virtual machines running on the server, each installed with Windows and the respective apps.

Ofcourse this needs unix knowledge but trust me this pays off..

The thin clients can be Win7 or XP.. or even Linux.. all the users need to do is take a terminal session (RDP) to the virtual server IP's on the server and that should be it.

Reason am pushing on Unix is stability... Windows can come nowhere near it..

Cheers!!!

Edited September 20, 2010 by faizone

[hiteshkkk1 327]

The server can be installed with any Unix flavor (Linux/Solaris) with virtualization support (Xen or Virtualbox)

We can have several virtual machines running on the server, each installed with Windows and the respective apps.

Ofcourse this needs unix knowledge but trust me this pays off..

The thin clients can be Win7 or XP.. or even Linux.. all the users need to do is take a terminal session (RDP) to the virtual server IP's on the server and that should be it.

Reason am pushing on Unix is stability... Windows can come nowhere near it..

Cheers!!!

Exactly this is what I wanted... But, dont have hands on experience of linux. Have just installed PCLinux with help of ami1's psot on our forum.. Will try to find some guide on installing Xen or VBox on PCLINUX & try...

Any help from our gurus here???

[rajanmehta 4,056]

Also checkout Ubuntu Server Version 10.04 Lts.

It is having lot of features, user friendly, regular six month update cycle. Ubuntu is currently No. 1 Linux Distribution Worldwide.

See on their website in server section. It has many virtualisation features you are looking for.

Also checkout WINE which is a linux software allowing you to run Windows Applications natively inside Linux without virtualization.

Virtualbox is a good virtualization software from Sun Microsystems which was recently taken over by Oracle. Oracle has already declared that it is going to stop non revenue generating softwares from Sun very soon. So further development will be a question mark!

If you are going to use Linux on Server, go for Server Versions of any popular linux distro instead of PCLINUX 2010 which is a Desktop OS.

Other good linux distros from Server Viewpoint is SUSE.

[faizone 15]

Exactly this is what I wanted... But, dont have hands on experience of linux. Have just installed PCLinux with help of ami1's psot on our forum.. Will try to find some guide on installing Xen or VBox on PCLINUX & try...

Any help from our gurus here???

Dont even worry Hitesh bhai.. Will help you.. and thats what Rimweb is all about!!

So go ahead and shoot ur doubts/clarifications on this post or PIM me and will take u thru step by step.

To start off with.. below are a few steps

1. Download Ubuntu 10.04 LTS ("Lucid Lynx") from http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download (Choose 32-bit/64-bit) based on ur server's configuration.

(Also let me know if ur server is a single processor or multiprocessor machine)

2. Download Virtualbox for Ubuntu at http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads

3. Installing Ubuntu on the server is pretty straightforward.. in fact its easier than Windows.. just select the default disk slice (partition) sizes.

Please message me or reply to this post so that we can go forward with the virtual machine configuration process.

Cheers!!

Edited September 21, 2010 by faizone

[faizone 15]

Also checkout Ubuntu Server Version 10.04 Lts.

It is having lot of features, user friendly, regular six month update cycle. Ubuntu is currently No. 1 Linux Distribution Worldwide.

See on their website in server section. It has many virtualisation features you are looking for.

Also checkout WINE which is a linux software allowing you to run Windows Applications natively inside Linux without virtualization.

Virtualbox is a good virtualization software from Sun Microsystems which was recently taken over by Oracle. Oracle has already declared that it is going to stop non revenue generating softwares from Sun very soon. So further development will be a question mark!

If you are going to use Linux on Server, go for Server Versions of any popular linux distro instead of PCLINUX 2010 which is a Desktop OS.

Other good linux distros from Server Viewpoint is SUSE.

Rajan ji.. Virtualbox's development may stop in the future.

The other alternative we have is Xen, but we have to note the point that Hitesh is a novice unix user and we cant push too much on him. Xen is a virtualization platform which needs a good command on the shell rather than the GUI..

As a startin point, let him start with a GUI driven linux virtualization platform.. then maybe he will move in to the deep deep world of unix and opensource..

[hiteshkkk1 327]

Exactly this is what I wanted... But, dont have hands on experience of linux. Have just installed PCLinux with help of ami1's psot on our forum.. Will try to find some guide on installing Xen or VBox on PCLINUX & try...

Any help from our gurus here???

Dont even worry Hitesh bhai.. Will help you.. and thats what Rimweb is all about!!

So go ahead and shoot ur doubts/clarifications on this post or PIM me and will take u thru step by step.

To start off with.. below are a few steps

1. Download Ubuntu 10.04 LTS ("Lucid Lynx") from http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download (Choose 32-bit/64-bit) based on ur server's configuration.

Already did that last night itself!!! Rejoicing...

(Also let me know if ur server is a single processor or multiprocessor machine)

As of now I have C2D 4400 2GHZ with 2gb ram. I downloaded 64bit for the same.. is it correct??

Also, if it runs successfully, my plan is to get corei7 or xeon based so that wud definitely support 64bit.

2. Download Virtualbox for Ubuntu at http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Linux_Downloads

Again already did that last night itself!!!

3. Installing Ubuntu on the server is pretty straightforward.. in fact its easier than Windows.. just select the default disk slice (partition) sizes.

Will do it n post...

Please message me or reply to this post so that we can go forward with the virtual machine configuration process.

Cheers!!

Thanks again........

[ami1 237]

If you don't want to use VirtualBox you can use VMWare - it has linux versions and installs flawlessly.

In fact, once you have installed the guest os you can just use the free vmware player to run the OS from next time (if you don't want to buy VMWare or use cracks etc)

Even for the initial install there is a simple workaround where you can use vmware player to do the initial install.

Here are some other observations:

I have used thin clients extensively in all types of enterprise as well as even consumer environment (see novatium.com for consumer thin client) BUT it does eat up a lot of time in configuration etc and any problem brings down the entire setup rather than just one person's PC going down.

Besides, the main issue seems to be your ODIN thing overwriting backups in multi user mode. Does it do that even if you install separate copies on a win2k8 server for each user in their separate profile folders ? (do 'install only for me' for each user)

If ODIN works, then you could simply have win server and RDP clients on atom or even via thin clients (see VXL thin client website)

VMWare will have additional overheads in terms of mem/cpu loads for a no of OS copies compared to just win server. I don't see much use of VMWare unless ODIN just refuses to work in multi user setup.

OR maybe you should just buy one of those small Honda Gensets and keep using normal PCs !

[hiteshkkk1 327]

^^^ Odin will work fine in multi instance setup. Backup issue can be sorted out with manual backups...

Apart from that, seems ur idea of setting up odin in different user directories will solver problem...

will update once done.

Have already though of Honda genset EBK2800S. Can anyone throw some light on its reliability & affordability??

[hiteshkkk1 327]

With all my research & help from our forum gurus, I have tentatively finalised below config:-

For Thin clients

1. Mini ITX Cabinets with DC-DC Smps (I have chosed DC-DC instead of AC-DC to save power. This eats max 25-30 watts) - Rs.2400/-

2. Atom D510 (or any that supports gigabit lan) : 3350/-

3. 512 MB Ram : 600/-

4. 512 MB IDE DOM or 2 GB Pen Drive : DOM = 600/- Pen Drive = 300/-

Rest KVM as per requirement.

This will cost around 7k.

Now, have a doubts in this one i.e. to use IDE Dom or Pen Drive. Pendrive seems a cheaper option & I have even tried booting ubuntu from pen drive & then access win 7 thru RDP. But, still for speed issues, DOM seems a good option provided someone teaches me how to embed any linux distro in 512mb DOM which has all drivers for Sound / VGA & only RDESKTOP is sufficient.

For Server

Not finalised full config yet but probably Xeon with 8gb ram with ubuntu server + virtual box.if this sets perfectly, then ok else win 2k8 & concurrent rdp sessions.

If someone has source for better pricing of above products, can mention the same or if required, I can share my source.

Even this all in one from Zenith suits my requirement provided I get it for max 15k. Any comments??

Now that I am nearing my plan, gurus pls help on embedding issue as i mentioned above. Rest I will post updates whatever I test.

[ami1 237]

If the DOM has IDE interface (or maybe they even have sata these days) then you don't need to do anything at all and you can just install most linux distributions directly i.e connect DOM first then boot a linux CD or pendrive and during install process select the DOM as disk and install on that.

Once you've configured everything you can even make it read only so that inspite of what users do the thin client image is the same on every fresh boot (except for documents folder which you can mount read write)

Alternatively, you can also copy the files in a linux live CD onto the DOM and run grub and make it bootable.

Tell me which distro and version you are using and i'll give you directions. PCLinux install perfectly on pendrives & DOM's. Others should also do but i'll check once if you give me the name.

I have a few DOM's with IDE interface - very low capacity though - 64/128MB - I can send to you if you have any need. These are 5-6 years old when we used to get solid state storage very expensive and we had compressed entire thin client OS on 128 MB ! (with Java, Firefox, OpenOffice, Media player, Messenger, thunderbird, file manager) But it used squashfs file system which has extreme compression but doesn't let you write on the fly so any writes are done in a complicated process of overlapping on the base image using unionfs. Old memories !

If your DOMs have some other interface like CF etc then i'll have to check. But almost everything will run with linux, you'll just need to search a little.

If you want to make a thin client image you can use some TC distributions or something like MiniME ( http://www.pclinuxos.com/?page_id=180 OR http://www.pclinuxos.com/?page_id=186) - around 350 MB with almost everything.

Alternatively, if you want more control on things - install PCLinux on HDD and customize everything, install & uninstall what you want etc and then run ReMasterMe script in PCLinux and it'll create a live cd image of that system. Just copy the .sqfs file inside that iso to any disk/dom/pendrive and install grub on that partition to boot.

Edited September 21, 2010 by ami1

[hiteshkkk1 327]

^^^

I would be glad to get those DOMs atleast for testing purposes as I havent used any till now. Also, if things go as expected, then will expand it.

Apart from that, for Embedded OS, I have following choices in my mind but have no idea how to embed them to pen drive.

1. Win XP or

2. Ubuntu or

3. PC Linux

Actually doesent if any of them is there. My sole purpose is:

1. VGA / Sound & Lan drives shud be installed for using highest resolution, sound & gigabit lan if supported by lan port.

2. Any good terminal services client like rdesktop shud be there.

3. In case linux, i wud use all the things thru RDP but in case of Win XP, i need IE7, Java, Flash, good pdf reader, support for pdf printer & network printers, one 3rd part app called active image which is required for scanning forms. Its very small & needs to be installed.

Thats it... Any distro wont matter if these things are accomplished. Also, today I tried booting Damn Small Linux, Ubuntu & PCLinux from pen drive & it took lot of time on my Athlon PC with 512mb of ram. I need faster booting times (under 30secs).

Whatever is easy for u to explain & me to do can be done.

[ami1 237]

I have some winxp tutorials for installing it on pendrive and DOMs and although i had got it to work and even have an image saved somewhere it had some issues with installing/updating drivers etc. Will see if I can upload the image or courier a CD. Will also try to include a linux image on the CD/DVD with the requirements you mentioned. You'll need to copy the win or lin images onto pendrive using DD command in linux. Will also send the DOM to you. Mail/PM me your address. Lin image will take time for 1st boot since your hardware will be configured. Win image may boot in safe mode or may not boot at all if h/w is too different. In that case use the tutorial to make another image. Give me a few days i'll do this in weekend.

[hiteshkkk1 327]

PM Sent

[Genius 817]

^^ i some how missed this topic - anyway

i have done good home work for server and client

i have server Running and have 5 client in LAN and 8-9 in WAN over internet working through RDP

i opted for MS Server 2003 SP2 VLK license and installed a Terminal Server in it (TS-CAL) per device lisance - this helped me to connect to my system anywhere in this world all i need is a PC and net.

i am using a dynamic ip and a forwarding service to publish my ip so that i dont have to remember only one address dynamic ip is automatically updated as router reboots.

2003 is not as resource hungry and will solve your purpose, client ca be any thing i am doing with custom XP done with Nlite.

If u need in this i can try and get you VLK key + TS-CAL license for free (each cost 3000/- in market).

[hiteshkkk1 327]

I have already configured RDP on win 7 (p1rated) & also have a registry hack to enable concurrent users on RDP. I have alse done the same dynamic dns thing & access my pc from anywhere in world. But now want to expand this system for my other workstations too.

As you said, u have done XP with nlite but then have u installed that xp on HDD or on Flash???

I wud not prefer putting any HDD so as to save cost + power.

[ami1 237]

^ Yes, I was going to mention that Doc is a killer (what a pun!) on such tech issues & you can get in touch with him to get any software & advice about win servers TS etc.

[Genius 817]

@Hitesh i installed it on HDD - you can install complet ver and opt for this i had posted some time back - it is helpfull in rights management

@ ami1 - i shall take killer as a compliment - lol - 50 TS-CAl for you any time.

BTW what are you using for DNS - i use Dydns